Within 10 days after written request therefor of any sale gen.

[drifting_along]

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

drifting_along, my advice on legal translations:

(johnstephenson is probably a great translator/learner of English but not perfect when it comes to long sentences and subtleties of native level grammar)

The secret of professionalism is simple:
You analyze the grammar of a sentence by breaking it into digestible pieces.

Here we got our sentence:
Within ten (10) days after written request therefor by the Landlord of any sale, assignment, Lease or mortgage of the Premises, the Lands or the Building by the Landlord, the Tenant agrees to deliver a certificate, in the form supplied by the Landlord, to any proposed Mortgagee, assignee, lessee or purchaser or to the Landlord, stating (if such be the case) that to the reasonable knowledge of the Tenant: This Lease is unmodified and in full force and effect…

Now you break it down by removing modifiers, defining phrases, leaving only the barebones -- the grammatical skeleton:

Within 10 days after request therefor by the Landlord of any sale, Lease, The Tenant agrees to deliver a certificate to any Morgagee, Assignee or the Landlord, stating that to the knowledge of the Tenant, this Lease is in force.

Now the word therefore/therefor means what?

In an UNABRIDGED MONOLIGUAL (2000 pages or more, not for learners!) dictionary you will get your answer: to that end/for that/on that ground/consequently.

Now then, ‘consequently’ doesn’t fit here. So, you have ‘for that’ or ‘on that ground’. So, we have this:

Within 10 days after request (to that end/for that) by the Landlord of any sale, Lease, the Tenant agrees to deliver a certificate to any Morgagee, Assignee or the Landlord, stating that to the knowledge of the Tenant, this Lease is in force.

Now, let’s ask ourselves: request OF what, and BY whom?
OF any sale, Lease
BY the Landlord

So, we nailed the grammatical structure here:

Within 10 days after request (BY the Landlord) (OF any sale, Lease).... or
Within 10 days after request (OF any sale, Lease) (BY the Landlord)....

johnstephenson says it’s ‘OR’ instead of ‘OF’. Okay, let’s suppose it’s a typo. Then we get:

Within 10 days after request (OR any sale) (TO the Landlord), the Tenant agrees to deliver a certificate to any Morgagee, Assignee or the Landlord, stating that to the knowledge of the Tenant, the Lease is in force.

What about logical coherence here (?): “after request OR any sale” – malarkey and it sounds crazy (= после запроса или любой продажи).

If you swap around (OR any sale) with (TO the Landlord)..., you get this:
Within 10 days after request (TO the Landlord), (OR any sale).... – total nonsense.

So, it is the word ‘OF’.

You can now see it is not that difficult. But you have to know the meanings of all the words. Now, it’s down to terminology and to inserting back the removed modifiers and defining phrases, and to translating them.

Sometimes people insert large clauses making it difficult to grasp the meaning. Sometimes their style and grammar are not very good. On top of that, according to the rules of English grammar, defining clauses are not even separated by commas!!! (but non-defining clauses are separated by commas)

Hope it was helpful. (Sorry for writing in En, but I type in En way faster, and it’s shorter that way)

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

drifting_along,
Just for fun, take a look at this example. It is a difficult long sentence and you have to divide it into manageable chunks, otherwise it is incomprehensible (from a letter from a solicitors firm):

Not to discharge or suffer to be discharged into the Leekbrook or any watercourse or ditch situate on the demised premises any water of less purity than the water in the Leekbrook or watercourse or drain for the time being or of a temperature sensibly differing from that of the Leekbrook or watercourse or drain for the time being of any substance or matter (fluid or solid) which shall prejudicially affect the Leekbrook or watercourse or drain or the fish therein or which shall be or cause a nuisance or annoyance to the said Joshua Wardle Limited the owner or occupier for the time being of Leekbrook Dyeworks or to any other person.

Here is an even longer sentence. A REAL PIECE OF ART, a beautiful sentence (!!!):
(Can you break it into manageable pieces? If you can, you won’t have difficulties with legal sentences anymore):

In the event that the Purchaser defaults in the payment of any instalment of purchase price, taxes, insurance, interest, or the annual charge described elsewhere herein, or shall default in the performance of any other obligations set forth in this Contract, the Seller may: at his option: (a) Declare immediately due and payable the entire unpaid balance of purchase price, with accrued interest, taxes, and annual charge, and demand full payment thereof, and enforce conveyance of the land by termination of the contract or according to the terms hereof, in which case the Purchaser shall also be liable to the Seller for reasonable attorney's fees for services rendered by any attorney on behalf of the Seller, or (b) sell said land and premises or any part thereof at public auction, in such manner, at such time and place, upon such terms and conditions, and upon such public notice as the Seller may deem best for the interest of all concerned, consisting of advertisement in a newspaper of general circulation in the county or city in which the security property is located at least once a week for Three (3) successive weeks or for such period as applicable law may require and, in case of default of any purchaser, to re-sell with such postponement of sale or resale and upon such public notice thereof as the Seller may determine, and upon compliance by the Purchaser with the terms of sale, and upon judicial approval as may be required by law, convey said land and premises in fee simple to and at the cost of the Purchaser, who shall not be liable to see to the application of the purchase money; and from the proceeds of the sale: First to pay all proper costs and charges, including but not limited to court costs, advertising expenses, auctioneer's allowance, the expenses, if any required to correct any irregularity in the title, premium for Seller's bond, auditor's fee, attorney's fee, and all other expenses of sale occurred in and about the protection and execution of this contract, and all moneys advanced for taxes, assessments, insurance, and with interest thereon as provided herein, and all taxes due upon said land and premises at time of sale, and to retain as compensation a commission of five percent (5%) on the amount of said sale or sales; SECOND, to pay the whole amount then remaining unpaid of the principal of said contract, and interest thereon to date of payment, whether the same shall be due or not, it being understood and agreed that upon such sale before maturity of the contract the balance thereof shall be immediately due and payable; THIRD, to pay liens of record against the security property according to their priority of lien and to the extent that funds remaining in the hands of the Seller are available; and LAST, to pay the remainder of said proceeds, if any, to the vendor, his heirs, personals representatives, successors or assigns upon the delivery and surrender to the vendee of possession of the land and premises, less costs and excess of obtaining possession.

[DUPLESSIS]

I type in En way faster, and it’s shorter that way

:))

[toast2]

assignee - цессионарий
не "правопреемник"

и тем более не правопрИемник (

lease - __договор__ аренды \ арендный договор

[toast2]

верный перевод дал alex 16

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Toast2, that is a correct word. I agree but IMHO it can be used interchangeably with правопреемник in this contract.

ЦЕССИОНАРИЙ — правопреемник, лицо, которому передается право на опера ции с чем либо или на собственность. Словарь финансовых терминов. Цессионарий Цессионарий новый кредитор, принимающий уступаемое ему цедентом право требования.

It's not gonna be easy to be very precise when translating things like "charges and lien". Of course we can make it 100% precise by introducing too much verbosity and additions but that's not a well-balanced approach to translation.

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

drifting_along, you'll have to make your own choices but I strongly advise relying on some HUGE MONOLINGUAL AMERICAN DICTIONARY.
Everything else is fluff. It is terminology that counts; Russian is a native tongue for everyone here, so grammar and meanings of Russian words should be OK anyway.

Bottom line (From Random House Dict'ry):
ASSIGNEE: a person to whom some right or interest is transferred, either for his or her own enjoyment or in trust = (примерно) правоприемник, or ЦЕССИОНАРИЙ or whatever else is close enough. Whatever else.

That's all that is needed. From here follows everything: ЦЕССИОНАРИЙ, правопеемник and whatever term you want to use. Itt should be close to the definition in Amer. dict'ry. That's all. It's that simple.

[toast2]

помните, как фрунзик мкртчян говорил: "я тебе один умный вещь скажу, только ты не обижайся"?

не учите право по "словарю финансовых терминов"

искренне говорю. совет такой (

[toast2]

и снова: выучите наконец, как правильно пишется правопреемник

неудобно за вас уже

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

drifting_along, sorry for repeating some points all over again. But I hope my input and my advice have not been useless for you after all.

One final note, you can use this superb American Dictionary here (Merriam):
www.m-w.com

Funny note: almost whole MT is trying to have me hanged, drawn and quartered over one damn misspelling made on autopilot: приемник. )))

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

I'm gonna write the damn правоприемник the way I want. Take care )))

[Erdferkel]

"после письменного запроса Владельца по Зданию или Участку, о их передачи покупателю" - тоже гуголь/МТ/Ворд/нечистая сила виноваты? 4 ошибки на полторы строчки
Ru5.5 в крайнем случае

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Erdferkel, думаю, что drifting_along может получше вас провести разыскные работы по корректной орфографии, стилю и т.п. Я этим заниматься не собираюсь. Не вижу никакой проблемы в выполнении правки.

[Erdferkel]

а самому не стыдно писать с ошибками? почему там нужно что-то разыскивать? стиль я критиковать не собираюсь, а вот правописание у Вас таки хромает
мне бы стыдно было, если бы в моих переводах кто-то следом правил правописание
в общем, ясно с Вами

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Потому что нужно всегда разыскивать ошибки и даже минимальные огрехи, если Вы профессионал и дорожите качеством работы!!!

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Если бы ваш русский был на моем уровне, то вам ничего разыскивать не пришлось бы, но увы это не так.

[Erdferkel]

написала было возражение по существу (насчёт Владельца по Зданию), но после этой реплики быстренько стёрла :-)))
на Ваш уровень мне спускаться неохота, лучше спать пойду
пысы: "увы" выделяется запятыми, про "Вы" я уж и не говорю

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Запроса Владельца по Зданию! А не Владельца по зданию!
До моего уровня вам не подняться ((
Good night )))

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

PS: you'd better watch out for your own commas. I know perfectly well where to put my commas and where to correct my misspellings or whatever.

[johnstephenson]

Ru10.5 En9.5:

***johnstephenson is probably a great translator/learner of English but not perfect when it comes to long sentences and subtleties of native level grammar***

Ha! Ha! A great learner of English? Well, I was born in the UK, have lived here for 58 years and I've worked as a linguist for 36 of those years -- so I wouldn't exactly call myself a 'learner' of English or someone who can't cope with 'long sentences' or the 'subtleties of native level [English] grammar'! Interesting theory, though....

Also I didn't say it WAS 'or' instead of 'of', I suggested that it MIGHT BE -- note the question mark after my comment. There's nothing nonsensical about this at all, as it would then mean:

'Within ten (10) days after written request therefor by the Landlord or within ten (10) days of any sale, assignment, Lease or mortgage'.

PS: You missed the hyphen out of 'native-level' (it's a compound adjective, not two separate words) and it's 'therefor' -- nothing to do with 'therefore'. It's old English legalese meaning 'for that thing/person/concept that's just been mentioned'.

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

PS2: Dear Erdferkel, you got dozens of punctuation mistakes. Congrats on that.
I'm telling you so that you know. Send your posts to gramota.ru and they'll clue you in on those ones. But better not. Too many mistakes will freak them out!!!

[johnstephenson]

PPS: It may surprise you to learn that the other contributors to this forum are actually quite intelligent -- almost as intelligent as yourself.... If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest a little humility is in order. It's all about team work, not one person passing himself off as the world's sole expert on English and Russian and ridiculing others when they disagree with him.

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Johnstephenson, sorry, man, for my mistake.
But how was I supposed to know you were from the UK? I thought you were Russian. Everyone is from Russia here or from the CIS.

What is old English legalese by the way? I know Old English, Middle English...

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

May I ask you, Johnstephenson, how well do you speak Russian?
You are living in GB or in Russia at the moment?

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Are you really British, man? Your English sounds a bit weird. Sorry.
That's why I thought you were Russian.

[DUPLESSIS]

А вот и срачъдискуссия! :-)

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

C'mon, man, you ARE from the CIS, aren't I right? I'm not that easily fooled!!!

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

You are way too careful about minor points (commas, hyphens...), while some English phrases smack of direct translation from RUSSIAN! That just cannot be. You ARE from the CIS, after all, right? I know Russian very well and can spot it easier than others! C'mon, break it down.

[johnstephenson]

Ru10.5: No problem.

I deliberately spelt the 'old' in 'old English legalese' with lower-case letters. There's no such thing as 'Old English legalese'; I meant 'English legalese as used in the past'. 'Therefor' is from the same family of words as 'thereby', 'thereto' etc -- now rarely/never used in everyday English, but still often/sometimes used (depending on the word) in legalese. 'Thereby' and 'thereto' are still commonly used in legalese, but 'therefor' is almost extinct. It just means 'for that/for those'.

You'll find people on MT are great to interact with, but you won't last long, and won't be taken seriously, if you pretend you're the only expert in town. Also, remember MT is a Russian website and that we're just guests. If, for some reason, you're not prepared to treat people from Russia and the CIS as equals, you're in completely the wrong place. And if you just want to start a 'flame', do it on Facebook -- not here....

Take care.

[DUPLESSIS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRNQq7UBqw

[johnstephenson]

Ru10.5: I'm originally from Lincoln (UK) but am now living in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. I've never lived in Russia or the CIS, I'm afraid.

[SirReal]

yet another attention whore with a God complex :)
welcome to the club
but just like John said, you won't last long

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Thanks for your answer. But what about these phrases:

missed the hyphen out of 'native-level'
and it's 'therefor' -- nothing to do with 'therefore
but 'therefor' is almost extinct

Don't they sound a little bit off for a person who has been living 50+ years in the UK?

Man, your punctuation looks like some hybrid between En and Ru. Sorry.
Sorry, but does a coma splice ring a bell to you, man?

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

SirReal, who you call attention whore?

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

Don't be queer, SirReal

[Ru10.5 En9.5]

DUPLESSIS, was nice socializing with you. Very funny.
You are a good guy.