Помогите рифмовать

There's a rumour going round,
that our Premier was found,
In a closet with a chap,
Sitting naked in his lap,
Though it's really just a theory,
There's a good chance he's a fairy.

You don't necessarily have to constrain a translation of a rhyme to its original form. You could theoretically think up a rhyme with many different derogatory terms like fag, poof, fruit etc.

tanit ✉

link 17.06.2006 8:52

Ребята! Ну вы даете. Спасибо. Я и по-русски часто не могу хорошую рифму найти, а вы по-английски, да еще столько вариантов...

Jacka ✉

link 17.06.2006 9:01

Давайте уж тогда переведем заодно и это:

Педераст из деревни Лыткарино
Полюбил космонавта Гагарина.
Написал он прошение,
Получил разрешение,
А прислали дублера-татарина

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 15:17

To Redarmy:

Of course I have a thick Russian accent - I am a thick Russian.
This is the magic of verse: you are hearing my voice, like it or not. In any case, thanks for pointing out the imperfect rhyme please/is (some poeple call it para-rhyme). I look forward to reading your take on it in Russian.

As for verse translation technique, here we are on different sides of the fence. My motto is: The form - or as much of it as possible - should be preserved at whatever the cost. Of course it is not always possible, but I noticed that it is mostly bad translators who often say that 'one should strive to convey the meaning, and not worry about form...' - this is just helplessness. The better is translator the less likely he is to vandalise the original by choosing a diff. meter, rhyming, etc. I think that any translator, who cannot wrestle such a primitive thing as form, should not attempt translation of verse at all. For I hold Form as the major attribute of Poetry. (Needless to say, all of the above - IMHO)

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 15:43

A limerick by Jacka.)))

One old queen, having sun-bathed on Narin*,
Fell in love with one Yuri Gagarin;
He set out on his quest -
Penned to Russians request,
But misspelled and they sent a Tartar in.

*A beach in Ireland... not sure how far it is from Limerick. (Trans.)

Redarmy ✉

link 17.06.2006 16:26

Shumov, that's quite a chip you have on your shoulder there... you should see a surgeon about it some day, coz you must walk with quite the serious limp. Wowee, do you have a persecution complex. I wasn't attacking Russians, insinuating that anyone was thick - though as you decided to be rude, I will tell you this: para-rhymes are the product of a limited imagination. Your attitude is fairly similar - a typically antiquated and formalist Russian attitude regarding the translation of verse - it's very Soviet 20th century... ffs, you sound just like Vilen Kommissarov. Just the type of narrow-minded git that persecuted Boris Zakhoder for his approach to the translation of Winnie-the-Pooh. Oh, and by the way - this thread was about jocular rhyme not your poetry or its 'sacred' form.
Of course, it doesn't matter at all, if a poem contains nothing of the original content, just as long as it has the same ring to it... *Rolls eyes*

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 16:42

Redarmy, I re-read my post and could not find a single rude word in it, there might be some 'limping' self-irony in the opening tirade, but no offence to anybody was intended, and I am sorry to see that some was taken.

All I said was - I rhyme as I speak, and since I speak with accent... i.e. I agreed with you.

I was quite looking forward to discuss some aspects of verse translation, since it is a subject that interests me greatly. Of course, after this torrent of (totally unprovocked) abuse from your quarters, no further exchange of opinions seems possible. So I think I better stop right here.

Redarmy ✉

link 17.06.2006 17:18

Rude insinuations were noted, not specifically rude words. The irony of 'I am a thick Russian' seems to insinuate that I have a vendetta against Russians, although the reverse is true - my wife is Russian.
In truth, formalist attitudes rile me somewhat and the 'whatever the cost' statement I found rather disturbing. Both form and meaning are significant, but it's rarely possible to preserve the two in tandem.
I happen to view the content as more important and the form as a little more flexible.
Poets, I might add, don't usually write a poem because it sounds nice - they write it because they want people to know about something that touches their hearts. Sometimes they do write to entertain, but the form doesn't have to be so rigid!
Perhaps I did over-react (and for that I apologise), but it's only because you were insinuating that I was attacking your command of English, which I was not, as it seems to be very high.
Not all people are capable of composing a comfortable rhyme with a casual ease in whatever language they might be working. Now, although that may sound like an insult levelled at you based upon my previous observations, it's actually not, it's just a fact of life.

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 19:57

Goodie! One last time - to clear the air completly - let me explain what I meant; when you read my pitiful expromt you immediately picked up on the fact that it is not written by a native English speaker, and this is what I think of as one of the most enchanting things about rhymed verse and poetry in general: it allows the reader to hear 'the voice of the Bard'. What 'rhymes' in York doesn't always rhymes in New-York, so to say, id est - what sounds like a valid rhyme to one native speaker may not be a rhyme at all to another; to say nothing about non-natieves. And this is what facinates me about Language - it's flexibility and huge potential to express things that no other medium can. Enough of that.

At this point the more interesting subject for us - and for anybody else reading this exchange, since this is a Translators' Forum - should be is the difference between two methods of verse translation. The statement that you found 'disturbing' is no more then declaration of which corner I am planning to fight in the forthcoming dispute. A presentation of an argument, if you will. An opening gambit. Whatever. I am far from being so naive as to thiink that we can find an answer to which way is right and which way is wrong, but I enjoy a good argument, able, willing and ready to engage in discussion... what's more - we can later swap positions and see what comes out of it. But for the time being I shall hold onto my original statement. Tell me what you think about the following:

Here is some of the best-known Russian verses

Зима!.. Крестьянин, торжествуя,
На дровнях обновляет путь;
Его лошадка, снег почуя,
Плетется рысью как-нибудь;
Бразды пушистые взрывая,
Летит кибитка удалая;
Ямщик сидит на облучке
В тулупе, в красном кушаке.
Вот бегает дворовый мальчик,
В салазки жучку посадив,
Себя в коня преобразив;
Шалун уж заморозил пальчик:
Ему и больно и смешно,
А мать грозит ему в окно...

("Евг. Онегин" V. 2.)

And here are two translations by two very distinguished people

(Translation 1.)
Winter! The peasant, selebrating,
in a flat sledge inaugurates the track;
his naggy, having sensed the snow,
shambles at something like a trot.
Plowing up fluffy furrows,
a fleet kibitka flies:
the driver sits upon his box
in sheepskin coat, red-sashed.
Here runs about a household lad,
a small "pooch" on a hand sled having seated,
having transformed himself into the steed;
the scamp already has frozen a finger.
He finds it both painful and funny --
while mother, from the window threatens him...

(Translation 2.)

Winter! ... The countryman, enchanted,
breaks a new passage with his sleigh;
his nag has smelt the snow, and planted
a shambling hoof along the way;
a saucy kibitka is slicing
its furrow through the powdery icing;
the driver sits and cuts a dash
in sheepskin coat with scarlet sash.
Here comes the yard-boy, who has chosen
his pup to grace the sledge, while he
becomes the horse for all to see;
the rogue has got a finger frozen:
it hurts, he laughs, and all in vain
his mother taps the window-pane.

In the first example (translated by Vladimir Nabokov) the form (when I say 'form' I mean it in the broad aspect - meter, rhyme, rhyme-scheme, rythmical and pfonetical tools) is largely sacrifaced in order to convey the meaning of each Pushkin's word. And I have to say - this is such an exact translation that it even hurts a little! The Nabokov's goal was to stay as close as possible to the original meaning and he achieved it with an utter brilliance!

The second translation (by Sir Charles Johnston) is - to my mind - a fantastic example of sound verse translation. The wonderful, original "Onegin Strophe", invented by Pushkin, is preserved in all it glory. Of course it is not as exact as Nabokov's, and at times one can see where the translator had some difficulties, but all in all I thiink that form, sound and rythm is what holding this piece together - not the meaning, which is at times not quite the same as in the Original. (Note, however, how both translators managed to preserve the 'sound-effect' in "Бразды пушистые взрывая...")

V ✉

link 17.06.2006 21:45

корнет, что ли, перевоплотился?
як...

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 21:48

V, ...???..

Shumov ✉

link 17.06.2006 23:22

Я прочитал характеристику, данную Вами пользователю корнет-а-пистон и мне стало неуютно и досадно. Возможно у нас с корнетом (нет оснований не доверять Вам) и есть что-то общее. В одном Вы неправы - в Вашем предположении, что "корнет перевоплотился". Это не так.

Ваш в досаде.

Ш.

Irisha ✉

link 17.06.2006 23:32

Shumov: а почему Вы приняли это на свой счет? :-))

Shumov ✉

link 18.06.2006 0:07

Irisha, ну, наверное потому, что эта реплика появилась под моим (длинным) постом и выглядит как реакция на сказанное мной. А еще - потому что я здесь "новенький" и "не знаю как себя вести" (как тот медведь!)... это вызывает обострение мнительности со всеми вытекающими. Досадно же стало еще и оттого, что беседа, которая только-только было вырулила на деййствительно интересующий меня сабж, теперь снова грозит пойти под откос.

Но это всего лишь оч. "маленькая трагедия" )))

Jacka ✉

link 18.06.2006 16:01

Мой вариант:
Little faggot, who lived in Lytkarin
Fell in love with a spaceman Gagarin
Special air force commisssion
Granted him the permission,
With remark: "Send the backup Tartar in!"

Shumov ✉

link 18.06.2006 16:10

Jacka! - )))

To Redarmy (a sort of peace offering):

По Москве пронесся слух,
Будто наш Премьер - "петух",
И в полночные часы
Лазит к мальчикам в трусы.
Может это и фигня -
Все ж, нет дыма без огня.

Irisha ✉

link 18.06.2006 16:29

"...беседа, которая только-только было вырулила на деййствительно интересующий меня сабж, теперь снова грозит пойти под откос." (с) Shumov

Браво! :-)

Juliza ✉

link 18.06.2006 17:43

Could you tell me, dear
If the Premier queer?